Celebration

[00:00:00] The Thieves Guild by Jake Care, Episode 100 Celebration Hi everyone, I'm George Turner, your narrator for the Thieves Guild. Welcome to Episode 100. This week we will be celebrating our 100th episode with something different, an interview with our esteemed author Jake Care.

[00:00:41] Thanks for joining us Jake. I'm really happy to be here, George. Thanks for having me and by the way everybody, George Turner, the amazing narrator of the Thieves Guild. What an amazing job you do.

[00:00:55] Thank you. I'm quite enjoying it, which is why I'm so happy we've gotten to 100 episodes. Which reminds me this is about you. So let's begin shall we? So how do you feel reaching 100 episodes?

[00:01:12] This has been a real labor of love. Obviously it started out as a book series, and turning it into a podcast with something I've thought about and decided like hey let's do it.

[00:01:27] So getting to 100 episodes is crazy. Didn't even think I'd get to 20 because of who would want to listen or how do I get the podcast out there so very, very happy. Tell me a little bit about yourself and your background as a writer.

[00:01:46] Yeah, I started to be honest. I started writing in my head when I was really little. I always was creating stories in my head.

[00:02:00] I would be going to church on Sunday and would just essentially create scenes about the church with superheroes coming in and bad guys robbing everything.

[00:02:12] And it's just to pass the time I was creating stories in my head, and I did that when I was at school and when I was at home and really I've been a storyteller to myself my whole life.

[00:02:26] I really started writing in the probably right around 2000. Good friend of mine had a bestselling book and I wrote her and said congratulations and she was like hey you know you're not writing why and I said well ever since I graduated college I didn't think I was very good at it.

[00:02:46] And she recommended that I start writing and she was very enthusiastic and I appreciate that. So I started writing in 2000 and I had no idea what to do so I just started I joined the writer's Garrett and Dallas, which is a writer's group.

[00:03:02] And we just did writing exercises constantly for years. I would write a scene of dialogue only and no description of the description only with no dialogue so really I just started writing in that way.

[00:03:17] And one of them members said hey you're really good why don't you join this writer's conference called Viable Paradise, which I had never heard of and I was like okay that sounds fun a week in Martha's Vineyard.

[00:03:29] You don't have to convince me twice. So I went there and that's where I learned about you know submitting to magazines and things like that so I wrote a story and got a very nice rejection and the person said hey this isn't really a science fiction.

[00:03:46] Really a science fiction story you're submitting it to a science fiction magazine. It has science fiction in it, but it's not really that important you need to write a science fiction story. So I wrote a story called the old equations and sent it off to a couple of magazines and light speed magazine.

[00:04:02] But it and it subsequently was nominated for the Sturgeon Award, which is a jury prize from the University Kansas and the in the nebula award, which is the award given by the science fiction writers of America.

[00:04:16] And that kind of pushed me into a bit of a spotlight and I've been publishing short stories and then started on writing novels ever since then so it's kind of like a journey of a slow start.

[00:04:30] And then as I got older a quick lunch and then some pretty significant success after a lot of writing exercises. You mentioned being nominated for a nebula award, what was that like?

[00:04:48] It was interesting because I knew it was a good story. The editor, John Joseph Adams really was supportive and I put a lot of work into it.

[00:05:01] And I thought it was good. I didn't know if it was award worthy. I had a hopes once I got nominated really nothing changes so much as doors open. And I think that was a real benefit. And this was for your first published story.

[00:05:45] That's actually true and I will go further and say post 18 years old wasn't the first story I've written. I wrote stories in college. But it was the first story that got published from me.

[00:06:07] I'm trying to like position it for you so you can get a sense of like how much of a rookie I actually was even though I was in my four like around 40 years old.

[00:06:17] Basically I came out of viable paradise having never written a story since college. And I wrote a story at viable paradise that I polished up and I sent out.

[00:06:27] And that's the one that came back and they said hey this is a good story but it's not science fiction. And that was a personal rejection that I valued this day.

[00:06:35] So the old equations was actually my second story I wrote as an adult wrote in my first published story and that was the one that got nominated for nebula.

[00:06:46] Now that's kind of arrogant and even though it's true the reality though is and I think people missed this that I had spent the previous 20 years more or less writing constantly writing essays writing writing exercises.

[00:07:03] And I like to tell people this like my first published story was nominated for a nebula word but I had written a million words literally written a million words before I even had a story published so there's that.

[00:07:15] You mentioned the thieves guild didn't start out as a podcast but as a book series what made you want to do it as a podcast and can you see publishing more books or will this be exclusively a podcast moving forward.

[00:07:31] That's a good question. I really wanted to continue the series in book form and I probably will but it is going to be primarily a podcast from here on out and why did I choose to do it as a podcast.

[00:07:46] It's meant to be a serial it's meant to be one of these things that's consumed in small pieces that's how I wrote it even though it was packaged as a book series.

[00:07:58] I think it's meant to be a chapter by chapter released type of thing but there was really at the time I wrote it there wasn't really an outlet for serial fiction. I think that magazines wrote produced stories or published stories and there weren't really serial fiction outlets.

[00:08:18] So when podcasts starting to be huge and the ability to create your own podcast was becoming more and more accessible I thought this would be really cool.

[00:08:28] I figured if I'm going to do it let's do it whole hoc let's do a full cast recording where people can be really immersed with the idea that they're immersed for this you know for a week or or on a Monday and then on a Friday they get their next piece and and they can't wait.

[00:08:47] And that was kind of the idea behind it. Oh and you asked about doing more I can definitely see myself doing more and in fact toward the end of this episode I'll have a special announcement that is specifically about that so look out for that.

[00:09:06] You certainly like to torture us don't you anyone who listens to the thieves guild and waits for the next episode knows that. The story starts out with simple mischief among two young friends and then gets progressively more complex. Was this your intent.

[00:09:25] That that's a great question and actually the reality is that I'm writing the whole thing completely by the seat of my pants.

[00:09:33] I started with that opening scene of Raylin and Rayf tossing the thing and I had this idea of about thieves guild and how he would be made the thieves guild master.

[00:09:47] So I had kind of like the ideas very, very rough ideas but I didn't know where I was going to go and that's part of the joy of writing it.

[00:09:55] I wanted to just kind of like have fun writing it out along with you know as the reader the same way the reader is reading it is how I wanted to write it.

[00:10:05] It's challenging because you know continuity becomes an issue and things like that but it's also a lot of fun and one of the things that I and one of my goals was much like Charles Dickens, you know people would wait for the strand of magazine on on on on on on docs as it was unnoticed from the ship they were so interested in what the next episode was.

[00:10:25] And you see this in some of the pulp fiction magazines and the chapters of Conan and things like that.

[00:10:31] The idea that a chapter every chapter would end with a cliffhanger I kind of loved that ideas so just write it by the seat of my pants and the chapter with like,

[00:10:44] what comes next and that not only would draw the listener listener in and the reader in but it would also make me excited about writing the next chapter. How have you planned out the story then?

[00:10:56] You had talked about increasing complexity and I think that's just the nature of storytelling you know as you bring new characters in the story becomes more complex and that's one of the challenges I need to face.

[00:11:10] Moving forward is how do I not make it so complex that we lose track of everything?

[00:11:17] You know each chapter is going to be following each episode is going to be following someone along as they continue their journey but if we have 10 people on 10 different journeys you'll get tired pretty quickly.

[00:11:30] So the challenge for me is that it will become complex just basically the nature of the storytelling by adding characters and with different goals. You're sending mail off on her mission to harvest house and then she gets moved in a different direction that makes it complex.

[00:11:46] Having Rayland go to Gowdland and meet with the outlanders now they're part of the story that makes it more complex. So it's actually something I have to be careful about because the complexity isn't something you build it's something you have to kind of contain if that makes sense.

[00:12:05] You mentioned Dickens, would there any other influences on the thieves guild? Yeah, Dickens for sure. Also the pulp writers I love egg rice burrows and Conan and just Red Zoro by Johnston McColley and I love how they have a real sense of narrative.

[00:12:24] You make criticize their writing and their prose and obviously the writing in an era where men were men and women were there to look pretty.

[00:12:34] It was very kind of sad in all of those aspects but fundamentally as narrative writers they're very strong. They know how to end a chapter with a kind of forward momentum and there's a lot to learn by reading them so those were all influences.

[00:12:49] I think for the thieves guild specifically the kind of, I'm trying to think what influenced me in terms of like the social stratification and the nature of having guilds.

[00:13:08] I can't really remember something that I've read that influenced it although I'm sure that I mean I've read so much of my life that there's a bunch that if you were to like say to me later.

[00:13:19] Oh yeah, that reminds me of this book I'd be like oh yeah actually I read that when I was 15 that probably isn't influenced.

[00:13:26] So hard to say, hard to say but the structure of it in terms of like it being a serial kind of pick a risk type of thing where you just go on the journey and follow people where they go and you end each chapter.

[00:13:39] It's going to be Dickens and the pulp writers from the 20s and 30s. Do you have a favorite character? Oh man that's another good question. Not really I kind of love them all I mean I guess is a writer.

[00:13:54] They talk about your darlings and I kind of love all the characters. I'll tell you what I really do have a favorite our favorite scenes.

[00:14:03] You want every you want every scene to be amazing but obviously that's impossible. So sometimes as you go along there scenes that just kind of stand out to you.

[00:14:12] And a good example would be when Raylin meets Mela for the first time and she's just constantly insulting him as they're moving along and he's like getting more and more frustrated.

[00:14:24] He's like hey this is made the guild master and you're insulting me and I love that whole kind of exchange it shows her character so well and her kind of like you know.

[00:14:39] And I establish my character perfect for a thief by the way and Raylin's kind of in like I can't make sense of this what is going on which which kind of is a perfect illustration of his character.

[00:14:51] I see he's thrust into this role so that was a that was a scene that I really enjoyed so no real favorite characters but favorite scenes if that makes sense. It does but I'm not sure I believe you. Fair enough.

[00:15:08] The main setting is a city called Ness where the social stratification is all based on guilds and each guild has a colour. I always picture the city as this patchwork of colours moving around. Is that how you picture it?

[00:15:24] You know when I designed the idea in my head of like colours being a guild I had no visual representation believe it or not in my mind.

[00:15:34] It was only later as I was kind of thinking of what the city would look like as you just did that I realized that it would be like this rainbow of colours rolling around and you would have a blue quarter and a red quarter and a yellow quarter.

[00:15:49] It's funny I named the sections of the city. You get to lower quarter or the upper quarter and you got the golden triangle and all of these various pieces all on like physical kind of play like descriptions.

[00:16:04] Like the lower quarter is down the slope from the mountain and it's one quarter of the city for the most part and the Ashfields are field to the Ash.

[00:16:12] So it was very literal in that but in hindsight I kind of like kind of what you're getting at or at least referencing is the idea of the city separated into the colours.

[00:16:24] I love the idea of the red district and the blue district but a last that's not what they're named but to your point they are visually going to be seen like that and as I picture the city I do kind of picture this this whirling mass of colour.

[00:16:41] And in sections where some colours dominate and others don't. I kind of like that image even if it seems unrealistic that you know people would be slavishly wearing one colour. I don't think it's that unrealistic by the way in terms of like cultural possibilities but I love how it looks so thank you for that question.

[00:17:07] I'm fascinated in how you mentioned writing the whole story on the fly. In an early episode we see some books in Pietro's living quarters as background description. Those books become very important later in the story. Did you plan that?

[00:17:27] You know Bob Ross talked about happy accidents and they don't only occur in painting. You know in fact that's a really core way of how I'm writing this and how I write a lot of things.

[00:17:41] I call them seeds basically what you do is when you're writing something you can add something interesting that's part of the scenery.

[00:17:53] And you do it there with the idea of it's interesting in and of itself it's there could be a painting on the wall it could be books on a bookshelf like you mentioned in terms of Petro's quarters.

[00:18:04] But they're there to kind of like make it seem more interesting than just a bare wall. But all of those interesting things can you can go back and look at them and use them later and that's what I did with Petro's books. That was not planned.

[00:18:18] I love the idea of this hidden history and again that came on the fly to me well into writing this that there would be like this hidden history ofness.

[00:18:27] And I was struggling to come up with like why does that these guild even exist it just kind of sounds kind of silly right.

[00:18:35] You know in terms of like being part of the social structure like the whole opening few chapters where the thieves guild makes it different in terms of the ruling decisions of the city makes no sense.

[00:18:48] So I kind of was like well did I write myself into a quarter here so what I did is I just went back and and kind of said how can I make this make sense as I came up with the idea of this hidden history something hidden.

[00:19:02] And needs to be hidden you can't have a recorded history of it or something like that but then I was like how do you expose it then so these are kind of things that writers go through and you're in your head.

[00:19:13] I don't know if people necessarily care who are podcasts listeners but you think about like the challenges that you create.

[00:19:21] I want to get to this point but to get there it's unrealistic how can I make it realistic so these are kind of the challenges that you go through.

[00:19:27] In this case, I put a library in the the tower but I wanted it to be incomplete because that would fuel further kind of you know. I think it's a very interesting and very interesting.

[00:19:41] So where could the rest of the books lie well I thought there's a library that's mentioned that's in in the upper triangle where the rich people live or that it could be there could be in a room there.

[00:19:51] But then it hit me oh my gosh I mentioned that the word books in the pictures office and and it was the happiest of accidents.

[00:19:58] We've got Pietro the Guildmaster thief living under the tower of the merchants he's got a huge bookshelf full of books no one reads no one cares about his books and he's guarding the history of the guild.

[00:20:11] I you know I couldn't have planned it better and it wasn't planned at all I know that sounds crazy but it wasn't. So you're not sure if where things are going. I like I said I know it sounds crazy George you're gonna have to believe me.

[00:20:27] I do not have a future plan on where this is going at this point in time because we we now have Mela and Darla fighting their way back to Ness somehow. We've got the outlanders who are creating a distraction we've got a whole bunch of things going on.

[00:20:44] Where is that going to go? I am I'm not sure and I think that's part of what's going to be exciting about the the next hundred episodes of of the podcast is we will all be surprised and hopefully pleasantly so. Do you have an ending in mind?

[00:21:04] That's a fair question I do think let me put it this way. I usually have a beginning in an end in mind when I write a book the middle is where you know creativity and all of the fun happens for the most part.

[00:21:18] So having an ending gives me a place on where to go. In this case however, this series is personal it's it's my way of creating the books that I read when I was 14 and 15.

[00:21:36] It's me writing out my version of my contemporary version of Conan or you know the land the time for God or the princess of Mars.

[00:21:45] All of those books just I consumed them when I was 14 and I never wanted them to end and this is me writing that book that's never going to end.

[00:21:55] You know I can't say it won't end but at this point in time what I really wanted to and my plan is to have these characters and again I mentioned earlier that you have to be careful not making too many characters everybody loses the thread.

[00:22:08] But have characters that pick up the torch you know I could see at some point nest becomes stabilized and maybe there's a leader and in the focus isn't on. Raylin anymore even though the the he's the guild master thief and the series is called the thieves guild.

[00:22:26] Maybe the thieves become supporting characters to someone else and they carry the torch maybe. Maybe it goes with melee and darlah and we discover the land there's sent on a mission discover woods on the other side of the mountain.

[00:22:40] Or they're sent on a mission to find the ocean that's passed out and all of these things are have so much potential around them I just can't foresee an ending. I don't maybe a meteor hits in the dinosaurs take over.

[00:22:56] Do you worry that people will get tired of the story? You know that's that is a concern and that's one of the reasons I try to weave in new new story lines or subplots and things like that.

[00:23:11] So if you're tired of Raylin fighting against the man you have made land darlah discovering the magic guild if you are really not too keen on what's happening with raf up in the tower you've got Rogers trying to rally the harvest guild.

[00:23:28] So I try to make sure that it's not a tiring read that everything is new and every chapter ends with some kind of element of tension to it. But it is a concern, I do worry that people get tired of it.

[00:23:40] I mean there have been books that have gone on for dozens and dozens and dozens of books and I'm not even close to that yet. So I do know that it can be done and I'm hoping that I can do it. Let's talk about the podcast.

[00:23:56] There are no credits or lengthy intros or outros. Why is that? Well I'm sorry I don't highlight your George. That was all by design.

[00:24:07] One of the things that I've been annoyed with when I listen to podcasts are these interminable intros that go on for two minutes and the, you know, even songs like intros scores that are.

[00:24:22] You know, a minute long when I was when I was getting the intro music which I love by the way for the podcast. The one guideline I gave was has to be under 30 seconds.

[00:24:36] So the goal was when I approached it was I have 30 seconds less than 30 seconds of music and we're in the story by the time the music ends.

[00:24:47] So I 30 seconds. 30 seconds is enough to do, you know, the name of the podcast, the title of the episode, the number of the episode. The my name, you know at least give myself credit. Sorry George not you but me and and it was it.

[00:25:08] So you know as you're well aware, as I talk to all of the or as I kind of crafted all of the pieces together and you know from the end music to the intro music to all of the voices and things like that.

[00:25:23] I decided to just focus on the story. So there's that it's it's by entirely by design. And I don't mind actually. I like your approach of diving directly into the story. Well, thanks George. I'm I think it works. I'll I'll just say that.

[00:25:44] The length of the episodes are usually around 10 minutes. Did you plan that? That was actually another happy accident. Each episode was going to be a chapter in an already written book series.

[00:25:57] Now we're moving beyond that now, but it's going to continue and each chapter just happened to be around 10 to 15 minutes. In hindsight, again, thank you, Bob Ross. I'm talking about these happy accents. I love the length of the episodes. They're short. They project, project story and character.

[00:26:18] And they're easy to consume quickly if you're on your way to work or something like that. They're not our long narratives and dramas and things like that. There are meant to be cereals, like the old 1800s magazines where Dickens and Wilkie Collins were published

[00:26:36] and people would read them in the carriage or they would read them at home before they went to bed and then they would wait for the next episode. So I kind of like it wasn't by design.

[00:26:46] It was a happy accident. But again, I feel like I've had a lot of these on this and I'm very grateful. Unlike a lot of podcasts, you produced two episodes a week. How do you make that work?

[00:26:59] Well, I have an efficient production so that helps but more than anything, it's the fact that I already had material written going back a hundred and basically ninety nine episodes.

[00:27:09] So when you have something written, it makes it a lot easier to get it out because it's already produced and all you need to do is have all the rest of the stuff added.

[00:27:17] And not that it's easy but it's not as time consuming as it's literally writing all of that. And that's why announcement number one for everybody starting with episode, starting next week we're going to be moving to one episode a week and the reason is simple.

[00:27:35] I'm going to be writing the works instead of using previously written stuff. Now I'm very excited about that because I will be able to experience the story as it goes along.

[00:27:45] I'll be able to read your feedback and I'm not so, I'm not so enamored with my own genius that I wouldn't take your ideas if you wanted to like toss them in comments and say,

[00:27:56] man, I wish it went this way. Can't say I would take those ideas but I love how writing and reading is a collaborative experience. So we're going to go to one episode a week starting next week.

[00:28:07] So one episode a week starting next episode. If my math is correct, it sounds like it will be two years before we get to episode 200. Well now that you put it that way, George, I wanted to do two episodes a week because I wanted to come fast her.

[00:28:22] But, alas, I can only write so fast. So yeah, thanks for bringing me down, George. Hey, I'm not the one only writing one episode a week. Do you have anything special planned as part of this 100th episode?

[00:28:40] Yes, actually we are going to be giving away a paperback version of the first two books of the theme skill that the podcast has been based on these first 99 episodes.

[00:28:54] And they will be both signed by me and sent off to you. There will be a sign-up form in the description if you want to have a chance to win the paperbacks.

[00:29:06] And I will be open to mailing them internationally as well, so this is not limited to just the United States. Am I eligible? No, George, you are not. Oh well, for those listening, check out the description for the link. Anything else before we go?

[00:29:27] Actually, I do have a surprise announcement. A surprise announcement. Now that's what I was hoping to hear. What is it? I actually have a young adult series called Tommy Black. It starts with Tommy Black in the staff of light, which was fairly successful about 10 years ago or so.

[00:29:54] And the first book is Tommy Black and the staff of light, the second is Tommy Black and the coat of him and the stability. And there's a third book that hasn't been written yet.

[00:30:04] And I decided I'm going to do the same thing with Tommy Black that I've done for the Thieves Guild. I am going to produce it as a podcast. So I still have to get it in place. You can, you know, we'll one ounce it here.

[00:30:21] But it's probably going to be in about two months. And I haven't decided whether it's going to be a full cast or a single narrator.

[00:30:28] I kind of like the idea of a single narrator and George, you can thank yourself for that because I really do love your narration. So but it might be full cast too. There's something interesting about having a full cast that I really like.

[00:30:43] But we will find out. So probably in let's say September, it looks like it's going to be September. Will be launching the Tommy Black series podcast. Still haven't come up with a name yet. I don't think it's going to be the Tommy Black series.

[00:30:59] It's going to be something more evocative. But that's coming in two months. So that's an exciting announcement. At least I hope you think it's exciting. That's wonderful. Can I narrate that one too? I just say something nice about you. Now I have to say something mean.

[00:31:15] No, unfortunately George, you're not going to narrate this one. I have to find a American voiced narrator. This is set in America. Well actually it's set all over the place. But the main characters are from America. Can you give us some more details about Tommy Black?

[00:31:34] Sure. It's set in a world. It's set in 1938 before World War II. And magic has been part of the world for so long. But as technology has come on along, it has come along. It is replacing magic. So magic is dying out.

[00:31:48] It's become kind of like this carnival act type of thing. There used to be things called archmages and the archmages were the super powerful magicians. But they haven't been seen for a long time. And there's one who is Tommy's grandfather who's retired and lives in Manhattan.

[00:32:09] He basically is retired. It doesn't have anything to do with anybody else. And the world is losing magic. And he's a little bitter about it. And what happens is he gets attacked with his grandson. And his grandson is Tommy.

[00:32:29] And basically, he saves Tommy in at Hack on a restaurant. Hands Tommy the staff and says, Take this with you and essentially hide it. I'll get back to you later. So Tommy leaves and that begins the adventure. And it covers so much history.

[00:32:49] It's going to overlap World War II and the World War II is going to have magic elements to it. It has lots of cool stuff. And again, book one into a written. So this will go on at a pretty good clip. Like I did with the thieves guild.

[00:33:07] And then we'll have fun with book three. This one will have an ending. The Tommy Black series podcast will have an ending, which is after the third book. But I'm not sure how long that will take. The beauty of a podcast.

[00:33:21] And I will be just like the thieves guild designing the third book for the podcast, not a book book. Is I can make it as long as I like or as short as I like. So we shall see. I'm exciting for it. I hope everybody likes it.

[00:33:33] When does it start? Geez, George, I said it was going to be like August September. And you have to pin me down. Don't you? All right. I will go on the record since you're being annoying and making me do so. It will be September 6th.

[00:33:48] We'll be the first episode of Tommy Black. And by the way, title will be changed. But the first book is Tommy Black and a staff of Light. And chapter one of that book will be the first episode, which you will have on September 6th. So there you go.

[00:34:05] Thanks for making this podcast to reality Jake. I'm happy to do so. I love writing. And I love telling stories. So this is more, you know, makes me happier. And if other people enjoy it. That's all the best, George.

[00:34:20] Where can people find more information about you and the other things you do? Where can people find more about me? The easiest is just to go to my website, jakekur.com. So if you go to jakekrr.com, you can find more information about me.

[00:34:36] I still write short stories. You'll find them. I've won coming up in Light Speed Magazine. In fact, it's a fantasy story. And you'll find news about other books I've written. I have a kind of a cyberpunk thriller called Thursday. That's available and assorted other things.

[00:34:56] So you can find me on my website. I'm also on Blue Sky. If you want to track me down there, it's jake at jake.cur.social. So jake.cur.social is my handle on Blue Sky if you want to follow me there. That's about it.

[00:35:18] And on that note, I'm looking forward to narrating next week's episode and a long future for the theme skilled. Me too, George. Me too.